Before Index she worked as a senior analyst at Google, reporting directly to the EMEA president and CFO on matters of strategy and planning.
During this episode we discussed about how she raised 73M dollars 1 month after giving birth to twins, why as a founder you should always be hiring and the importance of calibrating what great talent looks like for certain positions.
💃 Hire doers - "Doers till the IPO" - ask them what is the last thing they have done. How do they like to spend the day? Do case studies and see if these people are ready to get their hands dirty.
🤺 Manage your energy not your time!
👁️ One of the recommended books: "The human bug" by Sébastien Bohler
Eléonore was the best guest so far. She is a tremendous story teller and gave a lot of practical advice. Thank you very much Eleonore!
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❤️ This was an excellent discussion on building a business and hiring top talent!
Transcript - NOT EDITED
pigment, people, founder, business, spreadsheets, company, investor, co founder, ophelia, build, met, hire, advice, incredible, spend, customer, talent, problem, index, ecosystem
Eleonore Crespo, Calin Fabri
Eleonore Crespo 01:46
So actually, pigment was born in 2019. And I would say maybe even end of 2018. It's actually quite an odd story that happened to me, I got this back injury. And I needed the surgery at the end of 18. And I had to actually stay in bed for three months while I was at Index. And the problem is that you know, it was pre COVID. So at that time, people were not doing really meeting like entrepreneur meeting online, you had to meet pretty much everyone. So I actually had to stop for two to three months and actually sink back. And this is when I saw like, it's probably the right time to start my own company to take a step back. Actually, it's something that I've always always wanted to do. I studied entrepreneurship. During my engineering studies, I knew that at some point, I wanted to become an entrepreneur. And it happened to me that I took this surgery as this step to actually move because I had so much pain during three months, I had to stay in bed, I had nurses coming to my home every day, I was in really, really big pain. And so I really had time to like, think about what I wanted to do next. And I saw that I wanted to have a very, very high impact. And it was actually the time for me to take this step. And I actually met my co founder during my time at index, I actually came to him around that time and said, Look, Homer, I think I would actually like to start to write with you.
Calin Fabri 03:06
Sorry to hear about your back. Hopefully now everything is a little bit better. I'm curious, how does it idea evolve in someone's mind. So after you decided that I want to start a company, I want to do something impactful. How do you reach out to on what to work on? And who is the best co founder?
Eleonore Crespo 03:26
Absolutely. So two things. So the first thing was actually even before thinking about exactly what I wanted to build. I wanted to meet the perfect co founder and I think Houma So Omar to give some context to the audience was the co founder and CTO of Criteo. I knew him from my time at Index Ventures and I knew he was a dream, a co founder by doing also he's also co founder as on I was on the board of his second company. And they suit he had the perfect combination of smartness, humility. And I was like, if there is one day I want to start a company, it has to be with somewhere like coma. So we say that was the first part and then on the topic itself. So actually, it's a topic that came super naturally to both of us, because it's probably the biggest pain we have experienced in our entire life. So I actually wanted to start a company in order to impact pretty much any company in the world. That was the idea first, it was like, I really want to make sure that I impact as many operators in the company and as many companies as possible in the world and create a global business. And something I'd seen in my career. So I worked as an analyst for the CFO of Google anaemia and index venture. I saw that one thing that wasn't fixed really was the problem of spreadsheets and data in spreadsheets. i So operators analysts, C level execs, country managers, sales managers, account executives, I can give you a list HR, of so many functions that are struggling on very calm vacated Excel or Google spreadsheets with too much data, because they've never been built for that, with many mistakes, no collaboration, security issues, safety issues, etc. And there was like, there is something to be changed here, because it's very strange that pretty much any company today is equipped very well from every standpoint with many SAS. But still, when it comes to business data, you are still crunching it on Excel. And so to me, it was quite a discovery. Because when I was at index, a Susie's fast growing companies that know that all of the best tools out there and yet, when it came to financial data, business data, business plans, business forecasts, sales, forecasts, sales, planning, etc, workforce planning as well, it was always done on spreadsheets, and they suppose they should be a better way, on a PC, you know, my co founder, Homer Sousa, same at Criteo, he was going really fast, and they were doing everything on spreadsheets, I was just its biggest nightmare. So we wanted to really help them, we saw that with these projects, we could really become all in one business platform that could help pretty much any business operator in the world. And that went really well with our ambition. The last thing is that we thought we had a great founder market fit, because in order to actually build a tool there, you need a wonderful platform. And we knew that, given the network that we had, we would be capable of putting together the best engineering team to actually create the best product. Because I can tell you that, you know, at Google, for instance, we love to do things internally. And here, we couldn't crack the problem. And usually, you know, we build a lot of tools actually, internally, here we couldn't. And it's a very, very complex problem to solve. And we saw that perhaps we had actually the rights founder market fit to go after this massive issue.
Calin Fabri 06:43
So you have a problem, you found a great co founder, and you're tackling a very big problem. And also I can recognise the pain with spreadsheets. How do you go about it? And how do you actually paint a vision that is so ambitious, that people want to join, but at the same time, also make it seem that it's possible,
Eleonore Crespo 07:03
that was a difficult path. And I must say that probably, you know, for any founder out there, it's very hard to start bringing people on board, especially at the very, very beginning. Because there are so many reasons to believe in your idea. And there are so many reason not to believe in your brand, because you have nothing, you have no investment, you have no brand backing you you have no team, right. So you need to find a way. It's just the time you need to spend other founder to articulate what you're trying to build, to prove to your future hires, your future investors, etc. that the pain is massive on the trade something very easy to know. Because who hasn't struggled with a spreadsheet in their life, right, but then how to go about the problem is a second step. And here it's really about trying to articulate how with the people that you know, you are going to be able to actually build this gigantic leader that will hopefully, forever replace spreadsheets. Right? So this is actually something that took us probably most of our energy in the first year with Omar was to actually create on articulate what makes sense to tell not only to candidates, but also to investors and to future customers, because you have to start obviously very, very early to talk to prospects,
Calin Fabri 08:19
right? So you found it pigment two and a half years ago, what was the most challenging part of starting and scaling pigment, the trick
Eleonore Crespo 08:26
of juicy to actually create a successful company is the team. Sometimes we don't emphasise that enough. But the early team is your number one and only assets, because it's with this team that you are going to build your MVP. And it's resistance that you are going to try to send to your first comers. And this was his team that you are going to go fundraise. And with no team of you see you on the one. So I would say that the biggest challenge for us was to actually convince the best of the best people in our network to join the adventure stream today. It's the biggest challenge because I cannot emphasise enough how some people in my team today I've been absolutely instrumental to create what people notice today. Right? So it's really what will make you successful or what will break your company, you have to make every single hire. Right?
Calin Fabri 09:21
Correct. So there is a story that I've heard in the power law. So the book that just came out by Sebastian Mallaby and there is the story of how Alibaba recruited like the best talent, they really wanted the best talent and also they empowered them and they gave them a stock option pool, so then they can create their own team. When looking at pigment. What are some key learnings that you got by trying to recruit both the first employee but also now after your series B,
Eleonore Crespo 09:50
I can perhaps illustrate my first employees on what we did. So first of all, I think for the first employee, what's going to be very, very important is to excel plain to them that they are co founders of the project. And this is still true today. But even more so it was very, very true two and a half years ago. So they have to understand that they are co founders of the project, and that this project is their project. And it's a project that they are actually going to own on steroids. Meaning that will take care of all the fundraising, all the admin, everything for them. And what they will have to focus on is build the best product on set. So he obviously it means giving them the equity, they deserve to actually make them co founder of the project and spending time explaining to them how massive of an opportunity this is, and how much you're going to search for it. So I can give you a concrete example about the first employees and where we found them, how we found them how we convinced them and the sort of key learnings that go with them, and looked at who were the first 10 employees of pigments on they actually put them in four buckets, there is a bucket that he's around your network. So this is a story of CMS janitor, Nico, who know Mark give some of our team that are only engineers that started very, very early in the adventure, and that we knew from our respective network, I think this is the first pool, why you should go is to actually find people in your network that have the ambition to be on such a project and just make them follow your dream. The second pool of tenants that we have actually hired are the stories of Ben on genau, who are from indirect networks. And here we spend on kinome. Ben was our first product manager, Geena was our first business person in the team. And we actually spent a lot of time to find them, you know, was actually someone that was a financial analyst. So he has nothing to do with sales. But yet we convinced him to be the first salesperson, then on his side was someone from the ecosystem that I'd always dreamed of creating, actually a business planning platform, he actually walked from one of our biggest competitor, he actually wanted to create himself a business around that. And so here, you know, what was interesting is that we spent a tonne of time funding them. And we did some people that were true entrepreneurs, to actually be the first people to actually create this function. And the last bucket, our whole bar met you mean you lean on is that we're actually also engineer as an admin people that we hired. And these were actually people that we sourced ourselves on, spend a lot of time hunting outside or direct network. And so we'll come back to that. So I would say that, you know, if I think about the key learnings that go with how to get unconvince first employees to join, the first one is that you should always be hiring, meaning that basically every single minute of pigment at the beginning with homework, we were thinking about how to find the best talents, every time I would even meet friends, meet some people from my network, I would ask, do you know some people in this ecosystem Do you know some people that are super good entrepreneurs that would be willing to come and join the business team, and just spend as much time as you can, as a founder to be the number one source of your company. The second ABC, as I said, is to leverage your network because your network wants you to be successful. And so they will actually make you meet these wonderful people. So to give you an example, you know, I actually met him through one of my prospects at the time that now is a customer, the co founder of virtue, which is a car sharing company in France. And then we met through someone that was actually from the ecosystem that common you really well, that wants you to be see pigment, to be this next generation business planning platform. The third advice I would give here is to meet as many people as you can to actually calibrate your talents. And so in order to do that, what we did very early on was to talk to as many founders as possible. So to give you a concrete example, I spent a lot of time with Aleksey from data dog with Florian from that a coup that obviously co founders of these companies, and that had obviously made some mistakes along the way. And they told us what they actually found to be successful in the first employees of a service business. And I remember, for instance, Roy, you're giving me this example of the first business he had ever made that were people that had nothing to do with sales, but actually had obviously, this very much entrepreneurial mindset that I found was good. The first advice that I want to give goes with that right is that you need to also at the beginning, you need very, very pragmatic people. And this is probably the main thing you should be looking for. The first advice I would give is to actually take the decision in the fastest manner, meaning that you know, when you meet someone great on you at the very beginning of your project, you need to go really, really fast to onboard people and to close candidates exactly like you would close a customer. You need to put clear timelines because the problem is that these people usually are attracted by many other companies and there is absolutely no reason to follow you if it's not for you. So that means that as a founder if you need to spend, you know, an entire week with this person to convince her to join, let's do it, you should do it. And then you should make sure that you're able to close them first. Perhaps to finish on that, the last advice I would like to give are, first of all, to be different. So this will be my sixth advice is that you need to differentiate yourself from what's out there. You need to make people understand who you are, and what will make your company different. And I can come back to that later. And you also need to anticipate very early your future needs, because you will never go fast enough in hiring and hiring the right people. So that means that you need to take shortcuts. So to give you an example of a shortcut that we took, was that we knew very early on, that we needed to build a very, very strong team of engineers to actually build our first platform. And in order to do that, we needed to actually find influencers in our own ecosystem. To give you some example, we our business planning solutions have some of our main competitors or other plan adaptive inside planful. And we decided to bring on board z x, you have Anaplan, z x CTO of Workday, we actually bought the company that inside the X, you have plentiful that all are here to help us find the best talents because you know, really well this ecosystem. And that makes you win so much time, I would say from an r&d perspective, and from a business perspective.
Calin Fabri 16:22
Love it. Love it. It's very, very practical. Thanks a lot for that. Always be hiring, leverage your network and meet as many people to calibrate your assessment of talent. I wanted to follow up on the second thing that you mentioned to higher doors, how do you assess that someone is a door, so they're in a very senior position, you think that they're just going to do a great job? How can you assess if there are indeed a door,
Eleonore Crespo 16:45
it's very easy, you need to deep dive as much as you can. That means I'm going to give you a concrete example. We talked a lot about the first employees. But this is still very true now. And everything I told you is still very true. Now I consider myself the number one source of pigment today, every single exec, I will find myself right and every IC that are hard to find, I will look myself for them. And when they say that, I mean we are still going directly on LinkedIn sourcing the talents, reading articles, trying to understand the space, right? The practicality of finding a doer is so easy. To give you an example, you want to hire a sales manager. I asked him what was the last he crews who had him on the team? He didn't do that himself? Does he like it? Does he prefer to manage the team? Or does he like actually putting in the hands dirty? And speaking to the customer? What does he like in life? Is it like for an engineer? Is it like he prefers to actually spend his day coding solving very complex problem? Or does he prefer us to actually take a step back? And perhaps think about like how to be the project manager, team, etc. Still, until now, we need people that actually are going to do things. I need people to tell me yes, I love to write myself an article about how to actually help FPN leaders build a better p&l. I want people that tell me yes, if I come to pigment, I will myself hire my own team and spend days on night on LinkedIn finding the best talent, I need people to tell me everyday Yes, what I love is actually to spend my day talking to the customer. I'm going to give you a concrete example Jr NewsAsia, who I hired as my head of business, he's always telling me, I love to actually build the plane on fly at the same time, you really should look at his days, he spent his days in customer meeting directly listening to the pain all day long, doing perhaps at least focused on meeting your day. Then the other half of his day is about hiring people finding talents from sourcing them, etc, etc. And the last part is about abuses taking a step back, managing your team thinking strategically, and being able to actually leverage all of his knowledge to build the business, right? This is always what you need, you need very senior people that are capable to actually put their hands dirty on Jr. Clear example was a head of Global Business at Facebook workplace. So we built the business basically from zero to 100 million in ARR. Before joining us on you know, we manage team of 100 people and so he's very knowledgeable, but yet is capable of putting his hands dirty. And this is by not being afraid of asking the question on deep diving as much as you can during the interview process. And it really means that as you see you it's not by spending half an hour with a candidate that you understand that it's by spending as much time as you need to we get into a nailing exactly what this person has done in the past year on what she actually likes, and doing case studies and their schemes. These people are actually capable of going back to doing what they were even doing at the beginning of their career, which is really doing all of the basics that we need to actually be successful. And this is what they do on their own. By the way
Calin Fabri 20:00
If it kind of comes across as you enjoyed it,
Eleonore Crespo 20:04
I do, if you're not capable of doing that, it's going to be very hard for you to start a business. And I think all the best founders and entrepreneurs around me that I know, are the worst, and they need to be the worst, and TJP after the IPO, because you need to be here. You know, I also call myself a fire man, right? Like, we all know, we are also here to fix every single problem of the company. And you need to enjoy doing that. Because you are managing people and abuse you know, with people come problems that normal customers are people on with customers, you know, you need to make sure that you nail and that you support every single customer, you need to be here to support every single hire, etc, etc. That's what your job is about.
Calin Fabri 20:48
Love it, I wrote that down door until the IPO. Changing gears a little bit here, going into a part a little bit more personal, what is the best and worst advice you have received the
Eleonore Crespo 21:01
best advice, there are many I will pick, maybe not one, but two. The first one is, I think that when you build a business, you always need to think of it as a game. And when they say that, you need to understand that here. We are not brain surgeons, we don't have proper life in our hands. And so you need to understand that you are in this power game. And that you always need to basically control what you are doing, while taking a step back and making sure that you don't take things personally, because as you know, there are many, many highs and lows during the day. And if you start to stress about something, I'm telling you, you're never going to sleep at night. And here you are running a very, very long marathon, it's a marathon of many years, you know, for us, we we are here for the long run, we want to be the $200 billion business. And if we want to do that, it means that we should not take everything so seriously. Right. So this is what I try to do every day is to make sure that I always take a step back on what I do. And this is something that I have heard very, very early on from one of my professors slash mentor article, the mean, I think it's very true business is a game of power. And you always need to think of it as a game. The second advice is around your energy. I think that's an advice I got at Google around the fact that you need to manage your energy or not your time. And that's something that is also very true, you know, you don't have much time in your day to do things. These are very short life is short, in general, by the way. So you need to put your energy when it actually matters. And everyday when you wake up as a founder, you should ask yourself, what I'm going to do today that is really going to change the course of my business, is it actually spending so much time with this new sales manager in the US is it about actually trying to sign the largest ever customer that you have new type is it perhaps about actually taking you step back and thinking about your pricing and packaging, and spend all of your energy to do that, these are the type of things you have to do, because you will never have enough time to do what you need. The worst advice I've ever received is I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of unsolicited parental advice. And I have my own concept of unsolicited VC advice I have to say that it's something that I have experienced many times and I saw it myself you know when I was on the other side as if you see you need as a VC a VC to have a lot of empathy for the founders that are in front of you. And you need to understand that you know nothing about what they do. What I really don't like is you know, when I meet a VC that I've never met in my life that I've met for the first hour that is telling me what they should do to run pigment in the US I think this is really the thing that I'm trying to avoid as much as possible because I can tell you that usually you know all the advice you get you have thought about them you know and it's not as if it was this new idea that never came up and usually you have an answer and I like actually VC in the likes of you know Ophelia, Plum Blossom need from Greenworks that actually doers as well. And that actually spend the time trying to understand what you have done things a certain way and actually try to impact yourself in the right way.
Calin Fabri 24:18
Got it. Unsolicited VC advice. It's the norm I guess in the industry. Happy to hear that. Also there are others that are different and empathise a little bit more with the founders. Talking about the industry. I just asked for a little bit of feedback and preparation for this episode. And Yun hammer from index he said her main superpower is grit and resourcefulness. She's full of energy initiative and actioning ideas. And Ophelia Brown. I don't know any other woman who's capable of what she is raising a 75 million Series B from a top tier West Coast investor one month after giving birth. She has an incredibly high bar Our which I love. And she doesn't apologise for it. She wants the best for her team and for pigment. There's nothing which is unattainable. Wow. So there are like two things here. So one is about grit. Were you always like this having a lot of grit resourcefulness? Or did you train it? And then second, also, have you asked me to tell your story of raising the Series A, she would like to hear it from your perspective.
Eleonore Crespo 25:26
That's a lot of compliments. Thank you for sharing. And I love you and Ophelia basil. So I can only return the compliments. So I'm grittier, I think, honestly, since I was born, my parents always told me, I have too much energy to spend. And so this is also why I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur someday, because I actually wanted to put my energy where I can have an impact. But also, I think, that I'm the type of person that actually puts energy. When I see the impact that I can have, I don't have energy for things that I don't care about. I put energy where I think I can have an impact on the world. And I actually try again, you know, to manage it the way I told you before, which is really like, be as impactful as possible on every single decision that I take. And then yeah, so you want the story about the Series V when I raised Ultron, right? That was what you were asking.
Calin Fabri 26:16
Yes, I feel I mentioned that it was incredible how you managed to do that one month after giving birth,
Eleonore Crespo 26:21
it was challenging, so I actually had twins on May 11. So boy, Jana girl, Diane, and Samuel. For me, it was just impossible to stop working. And I don't give that as an advice. But it's an advice I would give to women is that there is never a good time to have kids. I've heard many entrepreneurs, operators that also have a very, very big impact in their own companies asking me like, when is it actually a good time to have kids. And I think it's always a good time to have kids, right? Like there isn't ever a good time to have kids, if you wait to be you know, 15 years, 20 years in you carry zero and never have kids on kids is one of the most wonderful things that can happen to you in your life. So just do it the way you think is right on when you think is right. And so, for me, it has always been clear that I wanted to combine pigment with my personal life. And that was a very important part of it. It was funny because when I was about to give birth, we had just launched our public product. And we were ready to accelerate. And we got approached by several VCs that actually asked to present around and with a woman, we thought it was actually the perfect upon shinty because we had the first signs of product market fit where we knew that the product was already quite incredible on that offers, customers were thrilled about what they had. And so we were like, we just need to launch now. And we need to launch properly, publicly make as much noise as possible and start expanding in the US. And so to me, it was very clear that they needed to be organised. And here, I have to say that I'm very, very thankful to my husband, that took a very long paternity leave. And it's something that I would really encourage in the tech ecosystem is that if you want more female entrepreneurs, or if you want more C level executives that are women, we need equal rights. And I think this is the most important one that I love to fight for. Because it's fundamental, that actually you share, the idea of having kids on parental leave is probably the most important one. And it was funny, it was a funny time because I was hired my kids literally like at this age, it's nonstop crying it especially with two, they were crying in the background, I was you know, pitching to investors. And it was really fun. And it was tiring. And I said to them, probably you know, one of the most terrifying things I've done, but I love the challenge. And it was just awesome to actually bring green oaks with us at the time
Calin Fabri 28:39
happy to hear the story and to see strong women like you and also fighting for the equal rights, which I think it's very, very important. And who is your hero, Eleanor?
Eleonore Crespo 28:49
Oh, my hero, I think it's my mother. But perhaps she's my hero. And she's actually she's also here behind me to help me be this amazing company while having kids. But here I could also give you names of people I highly respect and I was thinking you know about advice I could also give to the audience, given what's happening in Ukraine, etc. I think here you know, as the tech industry, we should also all take a step back and think about why the world is like that today. And there are a couple of people that I admire a lot in the likes of Sebastian baller wrote this book called The Human book. And I have this other book called this word without an end from John Maxwell QVC. And the last one is altruism from material er, these people I'm talking about our own explaining why or brain is actually making us do what's happening today meaning, you know, the climate disasters, the war, and the fact that you know, we have this tree atom that is one part of the brain that is always forcing us to consume more and to do things that are sometimes not going with what we should be building for a better world and so Given what's happening today, I would highly encourage you to follow these three people that I think are incredible. And obviously here to also build, I would say, a century in front of us.
Calin Fabri 30:11
Wonderful. No, thank you. I'll put their details either Twitter or LinkedIn, in the description of this podcast. Almost at the end, I think two questions left most thoughtful investor and or intrapreneur that you have met and admire. Yeah,
Eleonore Crespo 30:26
I would probably say investor, I absolutely love Eric from benchmark. I met him during the series A and it was actually something you know, with and Ophelia came on board, etc. But Eric has been such a, you know, I found him so thoughtful on everything he does on he loves or category and I just had some wonderful discussions with him. Some other people I want to mention, one is an incredible mentor to me is paramedic er, was the ex CEO of Anaplan, that I just found, he happens to be the best salesperson on earth. He actually wrote this book called selling to the cloud, I would just advise you all to read it, because it's just full of the best advice for salespeople, Jr. Could on you as well, an incredible mentor that was actually at the head of Facebook rock base on now down VC works for FedEx capital. And it just knows so much about how to be a great company. And the last two I wanted to mention, one is Dave Kellogg, I just found him so thoughtful. He has his blog, could can blog. And I just think that everything he says from assess perspective is so spot on. Finally, someone that I met recently is ill co founder of Supercell, I actually met him at slush during a dinner, we actually became super good friends, because we have the same vision of actually going way beyond our companies and trying to think about you know, how to actually build the leaders of tomorrow. And I just think it's such a great person from everything he does in Finland, he created this incredible phenol tropic font. He's been setting up the most incredible culture at Supercell from day one. And he's really thinking about how to actually impact the world of tomorrow. And I think it's what I would love to see from every single entrepreneurs is to fight for our rights fight for things to change, not only in the tech ecosystem, but more generally speaking, and he's someone that I really admire,
Calin Fabri 32:22
love it, a lot of people to follow in a lot of books to read. And the last question that actually they're like two questions, and one, what is your advice for someone thinking to start a business, and then at the end, if you have any ask from our audience,
Eleonore Crespo 32:35
so when to start a business? First of all, just do it. And do it, do it because it's the perfect time today to start businesses? I think I see it in France, it's the same in Europe. And it's the same in the US. We've seen the great resignation in the US a lot of people wants to quit traditional job, I think we've never had such an incredible pool of talent and capital available to start a business. It's the perfect time to market. And it's the perfect time to actually really make an idea strife. And especially in this very interesting times. I do think that as a leader, I would just invite you all, to have a lot of humility in what you do a lot of curiosity, because this is probably what's very important at the beginning, is to always question what you do have zero ego, and hire people with no ego as well hire real team players, people that are going to really be in the same mindset of humility and curiosity. The last thing I would like to say is take fast decisions when you start your own business, and really try to act fast on everything you do, because they will never be a bad decision. They will just be slow decisions. This is another thing I would like to say. And if I think about the audience, probably an ask that I would give it. If you need entrepreneur advice. I'm always here for anyone in that audience. My email is no no at good pigment that COMM And I think I've been very, very lucky to be surrounded by an incredible network of entrepreneurs, mentors, and they think we never give back enough. And I'm super willing to do that. And you see another one is that if you need help crunching you finance your business data, etc. pigment is, I think, an incredible tool for pretty much any company out there. But most importantly, you know, I would like to say that I'm here to coach especially when you start a business things can get really hard and it's important to have people to support
Calin Fabri 34:31
you. Wonderful, very kind of you thank you very much and there nor it's been a pleasure. Thanks a lot for sharing all your experience with us.
Eleonore Crespo 34:38